that is going to affect the long-term economic health of russia. so that wouldn't be about him precisely. and that's why it has to be preemptive, right, because once he goes in, then you're going to be forced to do sanctions and then you're in a game of lock-in, you're not in a game of trying to change his calculus. right now they're trying to change his calculus about further military intervention in eastern ukraine. >> how is the u.s. doing in terms of lining up the rest of the world, lining up the e.u. and other countries that matter to russia in terms of its economic interactions around this strategy? where have they succeed andy where have they not succeeded? >> well, they're working hard as best i can tell, and president obama just yesterday, i believe, said we don't want to get ahead of the europeans, we want to be in concert. and i think that's right, because if not, then they can pick and choose who they work with. but we have different economic interests. we're less exposed than the europeans are. it reminds me when i was in the governmen